Thursday, February 18, 2010

CCSVI Procedure for Multiple Sclerosis Vs Inclined Therapy

What I think is based upon 16 years of research into Inclined Therapy and it's positive effects on people with multiple sclerosis with hundreds of people showing remarkable recoveries. Given sufficient time most of the symptoms you have mentioned as improvements can be achieved without any surgery! To add credence to this statement I urge you and others reading this to read through the Inclined Bed Therapy threads and try to find anyone who is not experiencing benefits from I.T. And should you find them, wait 4 weeks and read their later reports.

As to whether surgery has helped to accelerate these improvements we can only rely on the posts from people who have had the same surgery and not been using Inclined Therapy. These can be found in the CCSVI Tracking project. Study these reports and see if the same improvements have been achieved using angioplasty or stent procedures alone. Then weigh up the differences between those who are and those who are not using I.T combined with surgery. This is why I asked for an inclusion in the CCSVI Tracking thread to indicate whether or not I.T. is being used by the posters.

Given the results of the posture poll so far, it is difficult to understand how Neurological damage which is undoubtedly influenced, if not caused by posture can be restored when the posture that initiated it is not addressed. CCSVI and Surgery alone does not explain these non-surgery improvements seen in people on this forum who have tilted their beds and not received any surgical intervention.

Swollen twisted veins in the legs or varicose veins as we call them can be returned to normal looking veins by controlling posture alone. Surgery at best provides a temporary fix with varicose veins, because the surgery does not address what causes them to become varicose veins. More superficial veins will become varicose veins to take the diverted blood flow and it’s inherent high pressure. The swollen veins inside the neck and close to the spine are not disconnected from the same venous that supplies the legs, so there should be no doubt that these abnormal veins in the neck and next to the spine are undergoing the same reconditioning that the chronic venous insufficiency undergoes in the legs using I.T.

Zamboni has argued in an email to me that these veins cannot be restored using posture alone. If this is the case, then CCSVI cannot be the cause of ms! If this isn’t the case and these veins are becoming unrestricted due to avoiding a flat bed, and sleeping on an inclined bed, just like varicose veins have been shown to respond, then and only then can Zamboni’s theory be shown to play a roll in the onset of ms!

Another possibility is that everyone on this forum who is reporting positive results using Inclined Therapy 1. Is either involved in some major conspiracy to prove a layperson is correct about circulation and gravity 2. Placebo effect can be shown to stretch over 11 years of complete ms symptom relief with Terri Harrison. Zamboni argued that placebo couldn’t be entertained as an explanation for 4 months of symptom relief in a video relating to ccsvi procedure. Or 3. Inclined Therapy is bringing about these obvious improvements without surgery and if this is the case, then posture is identified as a definite causal effect and the big finger points at the way we all sleep and sit! CCSVI could indeed be the reason that some people sleeping flat develop multiple sclerosis and many people never develop neurological symptoms using a flat bed.

It would be simple to prove what is happening with regards to CCSVI by people asking for a repeat Doppler scan while laying at an angle, laying flat, sitting up and standing up. These are the parameters that should be tested immediately to determine what if anything is changing in the venous return.

We will have to be vigilant and wait to see if anyone who is about to have these tests will ask for a scan on an inclined platform or bed.


info said...

Are you saying that after doing this for a few weeks the person can show dramatic improvements with their ms - better walking etc?

Andrew K Fletcher said...

Yes, that is exactly what is being stated here.

But don't take my word for it. Read the reports from people with ms whp are trialing it.

Dabble and the Mad Sow said...

yes, yes, yes. Thank you for raising this issue. One wonders about the testing of CCSVI in different positions. Was it done? I'd like to try the inclined bed thing myself...

phil said...

The improvements will work fine if taken after a long gap. Some of the varicose vein information is taken into consideration while doing so.

RACER said...

If a venous problem is somehow at the root of MS; then it would definitely be postural for me. Whether the bed can help I dont know yet; but I've spent the last 30 years in front of computer screens...

Andrew K Fletcher said...

Thank you for your comments.

Hope you will join the revolution against the flat bed soon.


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therapy is vital for life after an illness or accident it is always advisable to follow it properly we must not neglect

Anonymous said...


Anonymous said...


CCSVI Clinic said...

It is estimated that the failure rate of the “liberation therapy” may be 50% or higher, even through the most experienced surgeons in Poland & Albany. As more people receive the therapy there is growing concern amongst patients that the procedure needs to include a post-procedure protocol that is more effective than simply releasing the patient from the hospital within a day.

CCSVI Clinic said...

It should be mentioned that our research is under much scrutiny & attack from elements that are trying to control the industry & the dialogue.We would ask you to have the independence of thought to see through their campaign of deceit. research updates will be published on the Clinic website. Questions about participation may be directed toward the Clinic administration at 888-419-6855.

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Melissa Lessie said...

While US courts conduct legal battles over the ethics of stem cell research and Big Pharma shuts down clinical trials citing ‘tighter budgets’, North Americans wait for solid proof of stem cell efficacy for many disease conditions. Health organizations such as the National Cancer Institute issue continual warnings about lack of proof for stem cell therapy. National media shows like CBSs’ 60 Minutes, paid for by their advertisers that include Big Pharma, perform razor-sharp hatchet jobs on those quack clinics doing fake stem cell therapy, but in the process paint every other clinic everywhere doing stem cell research and therapy with the same brush. For more detail visit

Melissa Lessie said...

After 18 months of treating MS patients, CCSVI Clinic is well along with its program. “Success means different things to different people, but I’d say we’ve had much more than we could have hoped for when we first started.” says Dr. Avneesh Gupte, Neurosurgeon with CCSVI Clinic. “For the past year we’ve been adding autologous mesenchymal stem cell transplantation to the liberation therapy procedure and that’s when we really started to notice a significant change in patient outcomes”. Autologous Mesenchymal stem cell transplantation (AMSCT) means that the stem cells are taken from the patient’s own body and are cultured prior to transplantation at various times over an extended period. With the patient as the donor, there is no risk of transplantation leading to cancer as opposed to the risks of transplanting embryonic stem cells. AMSCT is now regularly used in North America for the treatment of Hodgkin’s lymphoma and non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma as well as other diseases with remarkable results including cure for many patients. “If it works for some diseases, is safe and well-tolerated by the patient, then why not other diseases? We believe that Multiple Sclerosis can now be added to that list.” says Gupte.
In the past four years Gupte has performed over 1500 autologous stem cell transplantations for many types of neuro-degenerative diseases, including MS, cerebral palsy, ALS, Crohn’s Disease, Huntington’s, and Parkinson’s among others.
For the past year, CCSVI Clinic has not done the ‘liberation therapy’ for MS alone without the combined stem cell transplantation in the same 12-day protocol sequence. “Once we saw how dramatic and long-lasting the outcomes were with the addition of the stem cells, it didn’t make sense to do it any other way.” says Gupte. Most MS patients would agree. Lawrence Vermeersch of Kenora, Canada is convinced that it’s the stem cells that are continuing to make the difference in his recovery. “I’m thinking it will take a year to full recovery, but I’m continuing to improve every day.” For more detail visit

Melissa Lessie said...

Jessica Davis, diagnosed with MS in 2003, of Somerset, UK agrees: “I have my life back thanks to CCSVI Clinic and it’s the best thing I ever did for myself. They weren’t easy to find but I did my homework.” She continues: “I had to be my own advocate for both liberation therapy and the stem cells because I got no help from my own neurologist. From the day I was diagnosed, my MS was aggressive. I didn’t have much time to take action before I would get to the point where just getting out of the flat would become impossible. I was using a cane and so tired all the time. After the 12 days at CCSVI Clinic, the first thing that cleared up was the head fog and my (incontinence) and the rest has come back over the past six months. I am working again and I consider myself cured.”
“These are typical stories for all types of neuro-degenerative diseases we are treating through CCSVI Clinic. At least with MS we are seeing significant improvement in many patients and I believe this trend of outcomes will continue” says Gupte. “We have also had some significantly positive outcomes with ALS and (cerebral) palsy. With the results we have seen in the past year, I think that the promise of stem cells is coming closer to matching the reality.”For more detail visit

Leo Voisey said...

David Summers, a 37 year old MS patient from Murfreesboro, Tennessee was a score of 8.0 on the Expanded Disability Status Scale (EDSS) when he had the Combination Liberation Therapy and Stem Cell Transplantation at CCSVI Clinic in March of 2012. Having been diagnosed in 1996 he had been in a wheelchair for the past decade without any sensation below the waist or use of his legs.
“It was late 2011 and I didn’t have much future to look forward to” says David. “My MS was getting more progressive and ravaging my body. I was diagnosed as an 8.0 on the EDSS scale; 1 being mild symptoms, 10 being death. There were many new lesions on my optic nerves, in my brain and on my spinal cord. My neurologist just told me: ‘be prepared to deteriorate’. I knew that he was telling me I didn’t have much time left, or at least not much with any quality.” David had previously sought out the liberation therapy in 2010 and had it done in a clinic in Duluth Georgia. “The Interventional Radiologist who did it told me that 50% of all MS patients who have the jugular vein-clearing therapy eventually restenose. I didn’t believe that would happen to me if I could get it done. But I have had MS for 16 years and apparently my veins were pretty twisted up”. Within 90 days, David’s veins had narrowed again, and worse, they were now blocked in even more places than before his procedure.
“I was so happy after my original procedure in 2010. I immediately lost all of the typical symptoms of MS. The cog fog disappeared, my speech came back, the vision in my right eye improved, I was able to regulate my body temperature again, and some of the sensation in my hands came back. But as much as I wanted to believe I felt something, there was nothing below the waist. I kind of knew that I wouldn’t get anything back in my legs. There was just way too much nerve damage now”. But any improvements felt by David lasted for just a few months.
After his relapse, David and his family were frustrated but undaunted. They had seen what opening the jugular veins could do to improve him. Because the veins had closed so quickly after his liberation procedure, they considered another clinic that advocated stent implants to keep the veins open, but upon doing their due diligence, they decided it was just too risky. They kept on searching the many CCSVI information sites that were cropping up on the Internet for something that offered more hope. Finding a suitable treatment, especially where there was no known cure for the disease was also a race against time. David was still suffering new attacks and was definitely deteriorating. Then David’s mother Janice began reading some patient blogs about a Clinic that was offering both the liberation therapy and adult autologous stem cell injections in a series of procedures during a hospital stay. “These patients were reporting a ‘full recovery’ of their neurodegenerative deficits” says Janice, “I hadn’t seen anything like that anywhere else”. She contacted CCSVI Clinic in late 2011 and after a succession of calls with the researchers and surgeons they decided in favor of the combination therapies.For more information please visit

Leo Voisey said...

“I went to CCSVI Clinic in India without knowing what to expect” says David, “but I basically had one shot left and this was it. I was becoming pretty disabled, and I couldn’t think very clearly”. David was triaged with a clinic intake of other MS patients and had the liberation therapy on March 27, 2012. They also drew bone marrow from his hip bone in the same procedure. When he woke up from the procedure, he again felt the immediate effect of the widening of the veins. “In case anyone doesn’t believe that the liberation therapy works, I can tell them that this is much more than placebo effect.” The MS symptoms described earlier again disappeared. Four days later he had the first of the stem cell injections from the cultured cells taken from his hip bone during the liberation therapy. The first transplant was injected into the area just below his spine. Over the next 4 days he would receive about 100 million stem cells cultured in specific growth factors for differentiated effect.
He was not quite prepared for what happened next. A few hours after the first transplant, he was taken back into his hospital room and was transferred to the hospital bed. “I’m not completely helpless when it comes to moving from a chair or a bed”, says David, “One of the things I can do for myself is to use my arms to throw my leg into a position to be able to shift the rest of my body weight over to where I’m going. But this time to my amazement, I didn’t have to pick up the dead weight of my leg and throw it. It moved on its own, exactly where my brain told it to go”. Shortly after his first stem cell transplant procedure, some motor function in his lower body had returned. “This was the first time in 10 years I had any sensation or motor function below my waste so it was quite a shock.”
In the next month, most every motor nerve and body function has either returned or is on its way to recovery. “It’s been over a decade since I’ve had any power over my elimination functions. Now it’s all come back. I have total bladder control”. He’s also working out every day, following the physiotherapy routine given him by the clinic. “For years, I haven’t been able to work out without getting sick for a couple of days afterward. Now I have muscles popping out all over the place where I haven’t seen them since my MS became progressive…and I can work out as hard or as much as I want. With my ability to do the hard work my balance is improving each day and I’m able to take steps unassisted. I’m definitely going to be coming all the way back.”
Dr. Av Gupte, the neurosurgeon who has now done over 2000 adult autologous stem cell transplants for various neurologic disease conditions says that the stem cells in David’s body will continue to work their healing process for the next year. “With the incredible progress I’ve seen so far, I won’t need a year”, says David. “It’s only been a little over two months and I have most everything back. I can’t wait to get up each day to check out my improvements. My right hand is completely back to normal without any numbness and the left is on its way. I have good strength in my legs now and I’m working on the balance”.
Other MS patients treated with the combination therapy over the past 18 months have seen similar improvements but none have been as disabled as David. “If I can come back from where I was, most everyone with MS could too. For me, CCSVI Clinic has been my miracle and I can’t say enough about the doctors, researchers and staff who are helping me to recover. For me, MS was my previous diagnosis”.For more information please visit

Andrew K Fletcher said...

Periods of low atmospheric pressure are associated with high abdominal aortic aneurysm rupture rates in Northern Ireland.

D. W. Harkin, M. O'Donnell, J. Butler, P. H. Blair, J. M. Hood, and A. A. B. Barros D'Sa

Regional Vascular Surgery Unit, Royal Victoria Hospital, Belfast.D. W. Harkin:
Author information ► Copyright and License information ►
Copyright notice
This article has been cited by other articles in PMC.

Seasonal and circadian variation in the incidence of ruptured abdominal aortic aneurysm (RAAA) has been reported. We explored the role of atmospheric pressure changes on rupture incidence and its relationship to cardiovascular risk factors. During a three year-period, 1st April 1998 and 31st March 2001, data was prospectively acquired on 144 Ruptured Abdominal Aortic Aneurysm (RAAA) presenting to the Regional Vascular Surgery Unit at the Royal Victoria Hospital, Belfast, Northern Ireland. For each patient the chronology of acute onset of symptoms and presentation to the regional vascular unit was recorded, along with details of standard cardiovascular risk factors. During the same period meteorological data including atmospheric pressure and air temperature were recorded daily at the regional meteorological research unit, Armagh. We then analysed the monthly mean values for daily rupture incidence in relation to the monthly values for atmospheric pressure, pressure change and temperature. Furthermore atmospheric pressure on the day of rupture, and day preceding rupture, were also analysed in relation to days without rupture presentation and between individual ruptures for various cardiovascular risk factors. Data demonstrated a significant monthly variation in aneurysm rupture frequency, (p<0.03, ANOVA). There was also a significant monthly variation in mean barometric atmospheric pressure, (p<0.0001, ANOVA), months with high rupture frequency also exhibiting low average pressures in the months of April (0.24 +/- 0.04 ruptures per day and 1007.78 +/- 1.23 mB) and September (0.16 +/- 0.04 ruptures per day and 1007.12 +/- 1.14 mB), respectively. The average barometric pressures were found to be significantly lower on those days when ruptures occurred (n=1127) compared to days when ruptures did not occur (n=969 days), (1009.98 +/- 1.11 versus 1012.09 +/- 0.41, p<0.05). Full data on risk factors was available on 103 of the 144 rupture patients and was further analysed. Interestingly, RAAA with a known history of hypertension, (n=43), presented on days with significantly lower atmospheric pressure than those without, (n=60), (1008.61 +/- 2.16 versus 1012.14 +/- 1.70, p<0.05). Further analysis of ruptures grouped into those occurring on days above or below mean annual atmospheric pressure 1013.25 (approximately 1 atmosphere), by Chi-square test, revealed three cardiovascular risk factors significantly associated with low-pressure rupture, (p<0.05). Data represents mean +/- SEM, statistical comparisons with Student t-test and ANOVA. These data demonstrate a significant association between periods of low barometric pressure and high incidence of ruptured aneurysm, especially in those patients with known hypertension. The association between rupture incidence and barometric pressure warrants further study as it may influence the timing of elective AAA repair



Andrew K Fletcher said...

Post subject: Re: barometric pressure may be doing a lot more than we thought
Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:00 pm

Any ideas on why periods of low pressure, rather than high pressure, are significantly associated with high incidence of arterial aneurysm rupture? I wonder if the same would hold true for venous aneurysms?

Post subject: Re: barometric pressure may be doing a lot more than we thought for people with ms.
Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:43 pm

Low barometric pressure increases my feelings of light-headedness and muscle fatigue three-fold. I've learned it's useless to even try and workout during those days/times. Glad (and sorry) to see there's a scientific study showing I'm not an anomaly.

Re: barometric pressure may be doing a lot more than we thought for people with ms

Location: south western pa.
poet, I don't know about the venous but I'd say pressure and the effect it has on most things I don't see how it wouldn't effect the veins in some way. I know that besides feeling like an all around heaviness and miserable every symptom magnified my legs get hit the worst.

maybe a way of telling if the veins are affected would to pay attention to varicose veins in the legs. to maybe see if they're more prominent or thumping or whatever varicose veins do. I don't have varicose veins not even spider veins to keep an eye on.

maybe if someone reading this has them they might pay special attention to that and let us know. or perhaps Andrew fletcher's thoughts. the inclined bed therapy effect on them and the before and after pictures are impressive. Andrew if you read this what's your thoughts or input?
Post subject: Re: barometric pressure may be doing a lot more
Tue Jul 31, 2012 3:54 am

Location: south western pa.
I have always advocated my thoughts that we need doctors from many walks of medicine right?---------------now we gotta get the weathermen in on this too maybe!! a little humour.-----------but, I've been told there is usually a little truth in humour.

Andrew K Fletcher said...

Post subject: Re: barometric pressure may be doing a lot more than we thou
Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:15 am

Location: Paignton, Devon, UK
blossom wrote:
poet, don't know about the venous but I'd say pressure and the effect it has on most things I don't see how it wouldn't effect the veins in some way. I know that besides feeling like an all around heaviness and miserable every symptom magnified my legs get hit the worst.

maybe a way of telling if the veins are affected would to pay attention to varicose veins in the legs. to maybe see if they're more prominent or thumping or whatever varicose veins do. I don't have varicose veins not even spider veins to keep an eye on.

maybe if someone reading this has them they might pay special attention to that and let us know. or perhaps Andrew fletcher's thoughts. the inclined bed therapy effect on them and the before and after pictures are impressive. Andrew if you read this what's your thoughts or input?

One of the therapies used for haemorrhoids / piles which are varicose veins, is to fill the bath up with water and sit in it for a while. The logic here is that sitting immersed in deep water increases the pressure to force the swollen veins back, the same applies for varicose veins in other regions of the body, though this is a temporary fix. The last report on the IBT Forum is interesting as it relates to a person with ms swimming and complaining about increased head pressure as a result.
Low and High Pressure
Air pressure is not uniform across the Earth however. The normal range of the Earth's air pressure is from 980 millibars (mb) to 1050 mb. These differences are the result of low and high air pressure systems which are caused by unequal heating across the Earth's surface and the pressure gradient force.

A low pressure system, or "low," is an area where the atmospheric pressure is lower than that of the area surrounding it. Lows are usually associated with high winds, warm air, and atmospheric lifting. Because of this, lows normally produce clouds, precipitation, and other bad weather such as tropical storms and cyclones.

In addition, areas prone to low pressure do not have extreme diurnal (day vs. night) nor extreme seasonal temperatures because the clouds present over such areas reflect incoming solar radiation back into the atmosphere so they cannot warm as much during the day (or in the summer) and at night they act as a blanket, trapping heat below.

Conversely, a high pressure system, or "high," is an area where the atmospheric pressure is greater than that of the surrounding area. In some places highs are referred to as anticyclones. These move clockwise in the northern hemisphere and counterclockwise in the southern due to the Coriolis Effect.

High pressure areas are normally caused by a phenomenon called subsidence, meaning that as the air in the high cools it becomes denser and moves toward the ground. Pressure increases here because more air fills the space left from the low. Subsidence also evaporates most of the atmosphere's water vapour so high pressure systems are usually associated with clear skies and calm weather.

Unlike areas of low pressure, the absence of clouds means that areas prone to high pressure experience extremes in diurnal and seasonal temperatures since there are no clouds to block incoming solar radiation or trap outgoing longwave radiation at night. Thus such areas have higher high temperatures and lower lows.

Andrew K Fletcher said...

The same density flow and return I have been working on in body and plant fluids also applies to gas density changes, in other words, we cannot have a downward flow without this generating a return flow! A high pressure in one area will cause a low pressure in another and visa-versa. A visible and often fascinating atmospheric flow and return system is the tornado, everyone focuses on the upward flowing tunnel but there is a downward flow that is thought to be the cause of Tornadoes. Some time ago I posted photographs of a plastic bottle with tightly fitted lid on a flight, this showed the bottle expanding at altitude where air pressure was reduced and crumpling at low altitude where air pressure increased. If we consider these same effects on veins and arteries it is not difficult to understand why there is an increase in ruptured abdominal aortic aneurysm (RAAA). Reduce the external atmospheric pressure and the fluid pressure that is pushing the artery wall out will unfortunately find the weakest point where it is present and rupture.

But what is happening to the shape of the veins throughout the body where no rupture occurs? This is the question that requires answering, could this be the cause of CCSVI?

My interest in all of this is about evaporation rate changes due to climatic conditions and how this, like the changes in density of the atmosphere, changes in the density of capillary blood leaving the lungs. Increase the rate of evaporation from the lungs and alter the position of the body so that it slopes down from head to toe and there should be some identifiable changes. When Pauline Phelps reported that her dropped foot problem was not present in the mornings where she used a dehumidifier along with IBT and was present when she just used IBT was a eureka moment. This proved beyond a shadow of doubt that the flow and return system was in operation in all of us! When varicose veins went back to normal looking veins in 4 weeks of avoiding a flat bed was another and when my wife and I confirmed that the density of urine increased when sleeping inclined over and above flat bed rest and that sleeping head down produced near water density urine, the body of supporting evidence ruled out any chance of coincidence.

Makes one think about the HBO therapy used for pwms?


James Bostrom said...
While some MS patients who have had the liberation therapy are reporting long-term benefits from having the procedure, there are just as many for whom the ‘liberation therapy’ has failed as an effective therapeutic intervention. This doesn’t mean that these patients didn’t have some immediate benefits once the neck veins were opened; most did, but over time the veins restenosed again and their MS symptoms returned. In fact, having seen their MS symptoms almost totally disappear however briefly once their veins were cleared, patients who have restenosed want it done over again, as many times as necessary in some cases. However, there is now a new and growing subset of MS patients who have had vein widening venoplasty multiple times, usually to less beneficial effect each time, leading to the later discovery of so much intraluminal scar tissue by the second, third, or fourth attempt at re-opening the veins that the procedure cannot be performed again.For more information on the combination therapy protocol and study email to or call 888-468-1554.

James Bostrom said...

Strategic Importance of Jugular Vein Dilatation Otherwise Known as ‘Liberation Therapy’
The Combination Therapy includes neck vein dilatation based on the findings of Zamboni, et al. The vein dilatation or venoplasty therapy provides the appropriate drainage of the CNS that prevents a retrograde pressure exertion on the myelin sheath covering the CNS. Whatever triggers the autoimmune system to turn on in people predisposed to MS, this back-pressure needs to be resolved. In case after case, the typical symptoms of MS retreat in individuals where the veins are expanded and the flow pressures are equalized. Since keeping the jugular and azygous veins fully open is the key to reducing MS symptoms, it is of paramount importance to know what other post-procedure factors create enduring effect in the venous flow. For example, there is now good clinical and observational evidence to support the fact that stem cells (transplanted intravenously at the time of the venoplasty) reduce swelling, thrombin buildup, clotting and subsequent permanent intraluminal damage leading to scar tissue. As to what has already been established through clinical trials and subsequent therapeutic practice, it has been found that even in patients with severely malformed or abnormal jugular vein structure, the intravenous introduction of autologous stromal cells (MSCs) post-operatively has served to repair injury attributable to venoplastic damage and desquamation of the endothelial and subendothelial cells of the interior venous lumen (tunica intima). Peak velocity, time average velocity vein area, and flow quantification have been assessed by means of echo color Doppler at periodic intervals post-venoplasty. Significant hemodynamic improvement has been recorded at the level of the veins in the neck post-venoplasty. Moreover, this additional stem cell transplantation therapy has led to increased luminal diameter and improved patency rates demonstrating that the introduction of stem cells post-operatively significantly modifies the hemodynamics of the jugular veins more effectively than venoplasty alone.For more information please visit or you may call the toll free number at 888-468-1554 or

John Dudley said...
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